The Table of Grace Podcast
Where every woman has a seat, every story matters, and Jesus is always at the center.
At The Table of Grace, we believe in creating open space for women to gather—no matter their background, season, or story, to encounter biblical truth that speaks into real life. Through honest conversations, faith-filled stories, and practical encouragement, our mission is to help women grow in their relationship with Jesus, live boldly in their calling, and stay rooted in purpose, right where God has them. Because at His table, there’s always a seat for you.
The Table of Grace Podcast
What to Do When It’s Not Well with Your Soul
What if honesty with God is the most courageous step you can take today? We invited mentor and soul care leader Lori McDaniel to help us name the ache so many of us carry—those seasons when we mouth “it is well” while our inner life says otherwise—and to show us how hard can actually be holy.
Lori shares her journey from decades of ministry into a new chapter of soul care alongside her husband, walking with pastors, missionaries, and everyday women who feel stretched thin by grief, fatigue, and questions that don’t resolve on cue.
Lori offers a hope-filled reframe you may never forget: this is the only time in all eternity we will commune with God from a place of pain. That doesn’t glorify suffering—it dignifies your story and calls you to steward it as sacred space where intimacy with Christ deepens.
If you’ve felt God’s silence, if your scaffolding has collapsed, if you need language for your lament, pull up a chair.
Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs courage, and leave a review to help more women find a seat at the table.
Follow along at:
Instagram: @centralbaptistwomen
Facebook: CBC Women's Ministry
Follow Lori & The Great Invitation at:
@lorimmcdaniel
@thegreatinvitationlife
Welcome to the Table of Grace podcast, where every woman has a seat, every story matters, and Jesus is always at the center. We're here to create space for real conversations and faith-filled stories that help you grow in your walk with Jesus. So grab your favorite cup of coffee and pull up a chair, because at his table, there's always a seat for you.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome back to the Table of Grace podcast. Today we have a very special guest to me and my co-host, Tracy Smith. It's Lori McDaniel. She's actually last year spoke at one of our flourish events. So if you were there, you actually got to sit in and listen to her share all the things. She was the one with like all the really cool big props. Like she had like all the things going on at that flourish, and it was so cool. And we're so, so excited to have Lori on today. Lori, thank you for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm excited to be with you guys. Um, love you both. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we're gonna hope we're gonna try to keep it around 30 minutes, but um, no promises there because we are all three of us talkers and we all three love to talk to each other. So it could be a problem in the best way. Um Lori, before us anymore, can you just share a little bit about who you are, what you do, all the things?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you know that question, like who you are, it usually starts with, so what do you do? Um, which is like one of my least favorite things ever to ask anyone or even to be asked. But let me start with the most important, maybe. Um, I'm a grandmother of six. Is that like that's impressive?
SPEAKER_04:I love that.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and we have one on the way, which is pretty awesome. So, and they're all under the age of four. So when they're at our house, the decibel level is through the roof.
SPEAKER_04:I love that.
SPEAKER_01:But we love it. So, yeah, so grandmother, um that gosh, that sounds really old, but I am. Um wise, it sounds really wise. How about that? Right. Um, but I like all my life, really, I have been leading in some kind of ministry. So whether it is leading a women's ministry or children's ministry or doing missions overseas, global work and so forth. Um it's just looked different ways at different times. And now my husband and I have actually stepped into a new ministry. Um, we left the church that we had planted 23 years ago, and we have started actually a soul care ministry, um, really wanting to work with those who are on the front lines, like pastors, church leaders, missionaries, and so forth. But we also come alongside other people and just really walk with them almost as that spiritual guide and mentor in their walk in whatever season of life and things they happen to be going through. So I guess you could say ministry with a capital N maybe has defined my life, but it's just had so many different flavors um throughout.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's so good. Um, and if you've listened to any other podcast episodes, I speak of a mentor and I'm talking about Lori. So she's mentored me uh for a few months now. I think I can't even, I couldn't even tell you how long it's been, but um, it's been such a blessing to be under her mentorship and I have learned so much and cried so many tears. I feel like she's the one person. Um, it's so funny. I feel like I can have so many hard conversations, but it's like I get on Zoom with Lori and I'm just like, I start crying. She's asked such good questions that I'm like, I've never been asked that before. So I'm hoping I can return the favor today and ask some really good questions that you maybe haven't been asked before.
SPEAKER_01:So you know, I think asking questions is one of my favorite things to do, but not to make you cry. So I hope that like that's not my age.
SPEAKER_04:It it evokes emotion that I need to process. So that's a good thing. Um, maybe I don't want to, but I need to, right? Um but uh Tracy, you and Tracy have been friends for how long? How long have y'all known each other? Longer than you've been alive.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, she's not wrong.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well, she's not wrong. That's impressive, actually. Yeah, we've known each other for a long, long time. Maybe we'll have some bonus content of some Lori stories. We'll have to make sure Lori gets off of the call first and then we'll share. That would be so fulfilling. I love it. I love it. Um, so when we were actually, when I was talking to Lori about being a guest on the podcast, um, I feel like one, there's so many things that um she talks on and so many things that her and Mike um talk about in their ministry with the great invitation, like all the things and even a lot of things that you've lived through um and walked through just being in ministry for so many years. Um, but when I mentioned just kind of like the really like the theme of our women's ministry this year and just like the direction, uh, you had a really cool um topic and a take on that, and I'm super excited for the conversation. Um, but really uh I guess the direction is as you mentioned, you know, talking and really honing in on what it looks like when what you do, what to do when it's not well with your soul, like how you can even like practically show up. Um I'm very I'm such a practical person, and I feel like you're the same way with um like stepping into like things and like understanding them, but also like how do you juggle that in the different seasons that you're in? So I'll I'll let you kind of run away with that, Lori, and like what kind of inspired that topic of um and like um how is that phrase really what does that personally meant to you in the season that you're in, seasons that you're walked, you've walked in before?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think I think that phrase, it's not well with my soul, is not something that we actually say very often, honestly. Um, and maybe it really came from a place of um almost where you enter into that paradox where you're holding your life experience, you're holding your life circumstances, you've got all the things that feel like you're weighing heavy on your heart, your mind, and you find yourself in the car and someone's singing, It is well with my soul, or you're listening to a message, and that seems to be the theme, or maybe you're in a worship service, and that's the song that is being, you know, sung. And it might, those words might even be coming out of your mouth. I know at one point it did for me, and there was this realization like, wait, what is coming out of my mouth and what I'm feeling on the inside, what I'm thinking, what my experience is, do not align. Like I'm singing with my mouth. I may even be displaying to others it's well with my soul, while at the same time my inner being is crying out, no, it is not well with my soul. But it's just not something that we say, it's something we experience, but might not know how to articulate it. And I think when I encountered that, it was kind of this like, whoa, wait a second. It almost feels duplicit. Like I'm living, I'm saying one thing but living another.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, I I think that probably resonates with so many different women in so many different seasons. Um I feel like we probably have all wrestled with that and really haven't been able to put language to it. Does that make sense? Like we you're in those seasons of um really hard things, um, or even like really just things where you're like questioning, like, okay, God, why is this happening? Um, why is this happening to me, or why is this happening to someone else, or you know, why am I experiencing this and asking a lot of why questions? Um, but also maybe you're in a position where it feels um wrong to say, you know, it's really I'm it's really not well with with with my soul. I'm I really don't feel good about the situation. Um, I feel like um, Tracy, I feel like can you resonate with that?
SPEAKER_00:It's just the phrase uh itself is such an uncomfortable thing to speak, even when everything inside you is whispering and audibly speaking it and sometimes yelling it. Um it feels almost as if it's a reflection on God, on the Lord in me, as opposed to a status of my own heart.
SPEAKER_01:The thing is, is like if I I think there's a lot of reasons for that. I think one, um, and I've even been guilty, I think, of creating atmospheres for this, but like it almost feels like there's not a place to say it isn't well with my soul. At the same time, we may not slow down enough with ourselves to be able to, you know, excavate that language within us of what's really going on to say it. So we don't slow down enough to grab hold of the language. And then if we do, it's almost like there's this uh tug of war within our heart, like, do I have permission to even say this? But the thing is, is like I look at scripture, um, and I see like you were referring to questions, Tessa, that those questions that we see in scripture that, you know, humanity is crying out to God, who am I? How long, Lord? Where are you? How long are you going to hide your face? Like these are questions from someone crying out from the depth of their soul. And in some sense, we have to go, and we may say, like, where are you, God? Why are you hiding? We may have all these questions, but really that question, when we are able to at least articulate that and articulate it to God, I think that becomes an invitation, you know, to God, maybe God even in turning around and inviting us to go, you know what? I'm glad you asked that. Let's sit down and let's identify, let's name what is it that is really going on in your soul, instead of just bypassing it. Sometimes we spiritually bypass it. Um, I think sometimes we bypass it because we shame ourselves for feeling that way. Um, which then kind of leads us into kind of almost like this moral spiritual formation, like moralism. Like, I gotta fix myself to be present with God. I gotta do away with this inner well-being that isn't good. Then I'll come and be present with God. And we put ourselves in this juxtaposition. So I think we need the permission to like it's okay to say that. Um, we need the permission to grab hold of the language and we need to slow down in order to do that. And I think we need to realize that sometimes these places in our soul, when we recognize them, we become aware of them, that they're actually invitations into deeper communion with God from that place, not just the surface places.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good. I think, Lori, how would you say that you have seen this? Maybe I know you guys minister to so many different people, couples and um ministry leaders and missionaries, and also just like normal people that are in ministry, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Normal people because missionaries and pastors in ministry, they aren't normal. Like they're the most abnormal people I've ever met.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, you know, I I consider myself, I don't know. I would definitely are we all are any of us normal? That's really a good question. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:No, but I would say this that we all have been given where it, whether it's a formal title and a paycheck, or it's just our calling of God because of the, you know, some other occupation that we have or something, but like we are all ministers, yeah. Um, and I think we should actually consider ourselves that, even in this conversation. Sorry.
SPEAKER_04:No, yes, absolutely. I'm actually uh I'll I'll you know what, I won't chase this scroll just yet. But um, you know, I'm a I'm definitely a scroll chaser. But uh I think I was gonna ask you, you know, how do you see this show up in the lives of women that you minister to? Like, how do you see them kind of do this balance, this um like almost this like tug of war that you mentioned, you know, how do you see that show up? Because I feel like there's probably a lot of women sitting on the other end of this podcast listening going, yeah, like I I'm starting to like hear and relate to this. I feel like I'm even maybe struggling with this right now. How have you seen that shown up? And how have you seen God meet them in that tug of war of like, I don't feel like I have permission to not be okay?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I I think I think that phrase that you just said, you know, like we don't feel like it's okay to not be okay. Um, like even that thought, like I'm just gonna jump in the deep end here and say, like, even that thought in and of itself is conforming to the world. It is not is not conforming to the way that God has created us, the spirit with who dwells within us. But when I'm like when I'm sitting down with women, and to be honest, Tessa, even within my own journey and my own soul, like I see this play out. Um, that it's like in this life, it is only acceptable if it is well with my soul. And so what we attempt to do um when we're talking with God, we're praying, we're even community with others, is we only present to others. And I would say we only present to God really the places that fell feel to us like it's more well with our soul. Like I'm gonna bring that. Or I might just surfacely like mention this one thing, this really hard thing, and kind of bypass this external circumstance, you know, that is taking place, but not let God like what He's really inviting us is deeper. And so it dawned on me one day as I was kind of sitting with my own journey, kind of trying to navigate, you know, being a grandmother, being a mom, being a ministry leader, navigate things that are really good while at the same time navigating the pool within that was feeling like it was going down and deeper, um, the pool within that didn't feel like it was well. And it and it felt like this tug of war within. And I think when I meet with women, I hear that. But I think one of the things, and it was kind of this like realization moment for me when I was really kind of almost preaching to my own soul, um, that I realized, and I think most people that I sit down with too, like when I'm say this, I think you'll go probably go, uh yeah, me too. Like, we never really realized that on in this life on earth is the only time in our life that we will commune with God, pray to God, cry out to God, speak to God from a place of pain, from a place of hurt, with tears that are overflowing, from a place of sorrow, from a place of rejection, rejection, from a place of injustice, from a place of unfairness, and like put in that blank those things that we deeply feel that we try to get rid of. But the realization that this life is the only time that we commune with God, like ever, because when I die and I leave this earth in eternity, I won't commune with God that way. I won't relate to God that way. Like the tears will be gone, the pain will be gone, the struggle will be gone, right? I will relate to him from a different place in my soul and commune with him in a different way. So, really, when I look at the what's going on in my life and my soul, the circumstances around me, whatever it might be, like I want to steward that well.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know that like within my life and even when I sit down with others, like we even realize that. Like we want to get rid of it. We want to shelf it and by all means understandable. We want God to heal it. Absolutely, let's pray that we want God to redeem it, restore it, reconcile it. By all means, that should be our prayer. But deep within, in that process, in that journey, God is inviting us into a deeper place and relating to him and on this earth is the like I want to steward that well in my life and whatever it is I'm walking through with him.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good. No, I love that. Um I I love that phrase too because when you brought that, we were talking a little bit back and forth yesterday. When you brought that up, I thought, huh. I've never really thought about it that way. Like just that this this life and being in um on on the earth walking around, uh, we commune with God in a way that's unique to who we are currently, and who's also in our actual physical location apart from him, um locationally, versus, you know, actually we are obviously have the Holy Spirit and this connection with him that way, but we actually will not be able to relate to him in the suffering and the pain because we won't have that in his presence directly in heaven, you know. Um, I love that.
SPEAKER_01:I think sometimes we think that well, I think this is the way we should think. Um hard doesn't necessarily mean it's not holy, right? So hard can have a holiness to it, it can have a place where God um is inviting us to present our whole self, and doing that means it requires us to do so um honestly in order to experience that intimacy with Him.
SPEAKER_00:I need you to say that one more time.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know that I can repeat that, but I'll try.
SPEAKER_00:Just at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:Hard the the part where I was just like I I think often what we do is is we think that just because I'm going through something hard, it's not holy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:When actually going through that hard place could be perhaps one of the most holy places that we enter into conversation with God. Yes, there could be healing, but in order to be in that place, like it requires honesty from a complete, our complete being in order to experience that intimacy with him. So, yes, hard can be holy. And in that place of what feels incredibly hard, it requires honesty. And we enter into that vulnerable honesty place with God, like we end up into an incredible place of intimacy with him, in his presence. It's almost like in Romans 12, 2, um, you know, we we quote that verse a lot, we hear it quoted. Sometimes we just hear verse one, sometimes we hear verse two, but they're very integrated, you know, and it basically it you know it says, you know, present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And it goes on and says, don't be conformed any longer to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And then you will know what the perfect will of God is. And so I think if we play that backwards, like, I want to know what the perfect will of God is. Well, in order for me to know what the perfect will of God is, that means that God is doing this active, almost partnering with me in this transformation of my soul, right? And it's not get things don't get magically transformed within us if we aren't honestly bringing them and naming them before God. Okay. So there's this transformation that is taking place in our soul, and we're trusting the spirit is completely at work within us. And as he is transforming us, like it's now like, oh, I no longer think like the world. I'm no longer conformed to that, you know, pattern of thinking, that highlight reel I saw on Instagram, that cute little tweet that, oh, I just need to remember that and change into that kind of behavior. No, we're not conformed because God is doing the transforming, but he's doing the transforming and we're no longer conform to the pattern because we have presented our whole being on his refining altar. Not half our being, not just the places we self-assess as our well-being present before. We present honestly and vulnerably, without judgment of ourselves, our whole being before him. That is holy, which means we're bringing even the heart of our soul, the circumstances we can't change, whether we created them and we're living in the consequences of it, or there's circumstances that happened to us. Either way, there's not shame there. Like we have an invitation to bring it to a redeemer, to a healer, to a restorer who desires to be in the deepest level of communion with him. Like, think about Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He is communing with the Father, asking for this horrendous thing that's about to happen to be taken from him. And he cries out, he says, I am troubled in heart. Like let's take that posture of Christ-likeness within the deepest places of our soul when it happens that it's not well. Because it's either not been well or it's not well right now, or it's about not to be well. Like at some point in your life, and the levels of that experience, the length of that experience may shift, but are we going to present it honestly before God? Wow. I mean, we we sing that song or we sing that chorus, change my heart, oh God, make it ever true. Change my heart, oh God, may I be like you. Which means then that we have to trust, like in Isaiah, where it says, Um, whenever we're walking through the bread of adversity or the water of affliction, I'm still going to hear my teacher behind me say, This is the way, walk in it. We have to trust in Galatians, where it says that Christ is being formed in us. We have to trust in Ephesians that when Paul is praying, that like may you be strengthened with the power of his spirit, who is at work in your inner being so that Christ may dwell in us, in our hearts through faith. And ultimately it goes on, you know, the width, the depth, the height, you know, and the love of Christ, that we may be filled with all the fullness of God. Which means then the most empty places within us. We cannot just spiritually bypass, we gotta bring it wholly before Him.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good. That's so good.
SPEAKER_00:Tracy, I'd love to hear your thoughts from that. I have many. Um one of the things that I think of when you talk about this, and I think about I think about in my own life, in the lives of women that I've uh I've talked to, there seems to be as much time as we may have been in the word, as much as we have studied, as much as we feel like we know who God is, there is still a place in us that when hard things come, a knee-jerk reaction is, what have I done? What have I done? And we begin seeking the thing that's going to make this right. As as if, I mean, you and you and I have talked about this before when when my dad was diagnosed with cancer at a young age. I remember sitting in the quiet saying, Lord, what tell me what I've done. And I will fix it, thinking somehow that that those hard things are something that uh has been done to us when the Lord can use those things for us and for the the growth of his kingdom.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah, no, I think uh there's probably so many other women that um and all of us really have walked in that and have asked that question um because I mean it in just relation to all the things we're talking about. I think we um uh and that like I mentioned, Lori is so good about prompting questions and really even asking scripture and how God asks questions. I love that, I love how she's so gifted in that. And um I think oftentimes when we do ask and we're we're either things that have happened to us or things, consequences of things that we have done, when we are sitting in this and we're it's right in front of us, and we're we're in the midst of it, we're going, you know, I don't, I don't know what to do. Or like you're you're reading this scripture, like transform, be transformed um by the power of God, be transformed by the renewing of your minds. I would love, Lori, for you to talk a little bit about what does that look like to walk out? You know, what does that look like to walk out this scripture to um even start? Um, I know you may uh you even like looking at back at the Psalms, like how David ministered to himself in his own soul. Like how what does that look like for women and or even us who are looking at our at our stories right now, going like I'm sitting in this hard place? Um I my life is upside down, or like I feel so, my soul feels so unwell. Um, what does it look like to practically um walk with God, but also like meet him and like allow him to meet us um in these ways that scripture tells us about? And what does that look like practically in in a way where it's like, okay, today this is the action that you can do? Whether that's even an action of just sitting and resting in him, um, what does that look like? And how have you kind of even walked through that yourself? Ladies, our first event of the fall is here, and it's time to get out your calendars, pull open Google Calendar, get out a pen, whichever way you like to remind yourself, write it on your fridge. Our first flourish night is happening Monday, October 27th, and we could not be more excited. We are going to be welcoming Tara Dew, author of Overflowing Joy and Overflowing Peace, as our guest speaker for the evening. And registration is open now. So hop over to centralbaptist.com slash women so you can register and save your seat with us. We cannot wait to see you there for just a night of fellowship and community and listening to Tara just bringing a word from God. We cannot wait to see you ladies there. The link will also be in the show notes. So if you are interested in signing up and registering, you can go to the show notes and sign up there as well. And again, yes, we hope to see you there. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:If I could just do these three, four, I don't even care if it's 55 things, please, somebody just tell me what to do. And the reality is, is that when like like Tracy, you were referring to that time, you know, when your dad passed away, like we we do, we enter into this time where there is just this misery. And it might be because of a death, it might be because of some other kind of loss or grief or rejection, or you know, what we expected life was going to be like, or a child was gonna be like, or like we just enter in this season where it just, it's a season of misery. But also in that season, what happens is the scaffolding that we've been leaning up against and maybe even has somewhat been propping up our faith temporarily or or something like that. Like it's been knocked out from underneath us. And in this misery, we enter this season of mystery, which then is like you were saying, Tracy, you're asking, like, what have I done? Like, please tell me. And our heart, our heart so longs in our humanity. I think like we're always trying to go back to Eden in some sense. Yeah, always trying to go back to what was, like in that place where it was good, and I tasted and I saw that God was good. Like, I want to be back there again. So somebody please tell me how I can go back there. Because honestly, I don't want to sit with God and how things are. I just want to be how they were. Because then it made sense. Then it felt more stable. I felt more stable, I felt more secure. What I was saying to myself about myself felt right, and what I was saying to myself about God felt right. And when something happens, that gets knocked out completely. And now what I believe about myself is being called into question, and now what I believe about God is also being called into question. So, in some sense, it's like we had this orientation, everything felt secure. We had our spiritual guardrails that we even had our spiritual practices in place that were working for us, and something happened, and that spiritual practice of being in prayer, that spiritual practice of reading scripture, that spiritual practice of whatever it's like all of a sudden it feels like. It's not even working for me. And I leave this season of where it felt like there was this spiritual stability. Um, and we enter into a season of what feels like spiritual instability, even personal instability. And what we knew or believed we thought about God, our heart is now disoriented. Um, and we're trying to regain our footing at times. Um, but the here's the good news in that is it is like it really does come back to um like I almost like I'm almost a little timid to go here because when I've been there in that place, the last thing I wanted to hear from someone is well, the Bible says. Um but even that is a place where I would say, Tessa, to kind of give if if I could give you a tote a to-do kind of something is almost like preach to your own soul. Yeah, like Jonathan Edwards, he put this spiritual practice into place. Um, if you go back to ancient spiritual practices, it's called soliloquy. Um, David used it in Psalms when he like he's crying out, but he even like speaks to his own soul. He's like, Why are you downcast within me? But then what does he do? He preaches what he knows to himself. He says, Hope in God, right? Whereas Timothy Keller says, I don't know if I'm quoted exactly, but he's like, if if your soul is arguing with you, then argue back, basically, is what he says. Um, like preach to your own soul, Laurie McDaniel. Like, yes, you're questioning. God, why are you silent? God, where are you? God, why is this happening? God, what am I supposed to do? What can I do to make this right again? Right. And that the reality is, is like I gotta preach to my own soul the truth that even though in those places I may it may not make sense, that there's mystery in the misery, right? That there's times where it feels like it feels like God is silent. Like, but silence doesn't equal absence. Yeah. Silence actually might be an imitation for us in that place where we can't explain where we're we're assuming responsibility. My dad died because of something I did. I mean, that's basically you know, sometimes how we think. Um, again, trying to get back to what was. Again, uh, that place where we feel like God is silent isn't absence, it's actually a place of presence where uh we're learning and building spiritual muscles we've never had to use before or exercise of leaning into God's character, even though we may not feel it. Leaning in and listening in a different, slower cadence than what we've ever done before. Leaning in and realizing that communion isn't just talking, it's also present and learning to practice presence with God. So man, I know let me, I'll give a to-do list just for the sake of a to-do list. Um but there is, I would put the top of that to-do list, there is a place of being. And that place of being is honesty. Not explaining, not judging, not excusing, it's just a place of honesty before God. It's a place of practicing presence with God. Um, it's practicing soliloquy, um, preaching to my own soul. Um, it's almost like then now beginning notice, taking notice, God, what are you saying to me about me? What are you saying to me about you? Um, it's still a place of staying in scripture. Um, I'm huge, like even the most desperate times in my life, even when maybe when I'm reading my question, my heart's calling it into question, staying in the word. And I would also say that sometimes in those places, it's learning a practice of I I would say it's a spiritual practice that we see in scripture, but we're not taught how to do, which is really lament that we see throughout Psalms, we see a whole book of lamentations for crying out loud. Um which like basically we are we're turning to God in the deepest places of our soul. Yeah, we're almost bringing our complaint to God. Um like Job twice it says of him that I'm crying out, like I'm not gonna be silent. I'm crying out in the bitterness of my soul. Um, so it's turning to God, it's bringing our complaint to God, but it's also asking boldly. Like, like God have mercy. God, will you give grace? God is there, like you're asking boldly for his presence. There's even a place of even thanksgiving, but then it's even turning to trust. Yeah. Even in the hard. Hard doesn't mean it's not holy. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, I think that's all that is so good. And I know I feel like it's a lot of a lot, but it's also a good amount of things to like just if I I would say if you're driving or walking, like go back home, re-listen to this, grab a notebook, take some notes, uh, because it's really such a good, um, good, applicable thing to sit down and just like really even like wrestle with it, what that looks like in your own life. You know, I feel like it looks like um doing those things, being even like figuring out how to like be present with God, I feel like is its own thing and looks so different in different seasons. I know we talked about this even on the podcast already, but just like um navigating different seasons in our lives and how the how those look differently and how even God like uses all of those so differently to even minister and to teach us and to shape us. Um, I think for sure what one of the hardest things to do, even as women, um, I mean, obviously men struggle with this too, but I think like specifically women, um, is to be present with God. It's to maybe even it's not like actual physical or physical or um like actual stillness, because I feel like I have like the only stillness I have is if it's like 2 a.m. and no one's awake. But um I think often it's hard to figure out how to be still, how to be, how to sit and be present and just be with God because we live in such a anxious hustle, you know, hustle culture hustle culture uh generation of like if you're not doing, if you're not um, even like in the church too, like if you're not doing all the things, if you're not running around and volunteering, like dah-da-da-da-da, like then you're not serving God. And then that's not, you know, that's not pleasing to God. Like I feel like there's a lot of things that um are even lies that we believe that aren't actually biblical, you know, and I think we can often get caught up chasing the wrong things, hustling really hard, and then we get to these places where it's not well with our soul, things happen, and we're again, like you mentioned, things just start crumbling down because we're um doing all these things for God and we don't even know what it's like to be with God, you know. Um, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I love that phrase you just said, things start crumbling down. So um you remember the song? I don't know, Tracy Smith. Maybe you remember you remember this song, Tessa. I don't know if you learned it when you were a kid or not. So maybe dating myself. But do you remember the song that um well it's a parable, so it's not just a song, but it like Jesus tells the story. It's a parable where the man builds his house up on sand, you know, right? The floods came and the winds came.
SPEAKER_04:I've actually listened to this one. I I was raped in some culture, you know, some culture.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but like there's the and this thing is like this this aha, like it wasn't even original, original with me, but I don't know who to credit it to. Um, so I'm just gonna credit it to Jesus, but like, okay, the guy builds his house up on the sand, he builds his house up on the rock, right? And we're always talking about like, don't build your house on the sand, build your house up on the rock. And and that's how I think like I want to be solid, I want to be sure, I want to have my footing, I'm gonna be strong, right? But what we don't consider at times, if the storm happened to both people, I think there is something within us that we think if I just build my life upon the rock, I will avoid the storm. And that is not true. No, like the storm will happen, and I would probably um go so far to say as storms will happen. Um yeah, so we're we all face that. Um, even reminds me of another song that um we sung as kids, and this one really made date. Um, but it was a chorus of uh Let the Redeemed of the Lord Say So. Do you guys remember that song? I'm not gonna sing it.
SPEAKER_04:I think you should sing.
SPEAKER_01:We'll have to that when you ask, like, who are you? What do you do? Singing is not like I I realize that is not my thing. Um but there's a this phrase, let the redeemed of the Lord say so. And I remember as a kid going, what does that even mean? Like, I don't even we're just gonna scream so as loud as we can, like that's it. Um, but I was reading in Psalm uh chapter 107, um, and in the King James Version, that verse is there. Like we were literally singing scripture and I didn't even know it. Like, let the redeemed of the Lord say so. But like, what does it mean? Um, and if I like when I look it up in the NIV translation, it says, let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story. And I thought, okay, now, like I can identify with that. So, in some senses, let the redeemed of the Lord say so. It's like, so let me tell you, right? Pull up a chair and let me tell you what God has done for my soul, as David said in Psalm 66. Like, come and listen. Let me tell you what he's done for my soul. But when I was when I was reading that and I came across that, let the redeem of the Lord tell their story. When you look at the chapter 107 in Psalm, then there's four stories. It's almost like it's it's its own song, right? And so in this psalm, in this song, there are four stories that now the psalmist is like giving verse one, verse two, verse three, and verse four. And what I love about it is I wish we could just dissect this on a podcast alone. But if you look it up, like there are four things, if we were to plot it out, that are repetitive in every person's thing. So everybody who's listening right now, like their circumstances are different from mine, mine are different from theirs, their situation, their story, so on and so forth. And it will be that way until the end of time. Everyone's stories will be different. But what do we do with it? So when we look at Psalm 107, we see these four almost plots. We see whatever experience they're going through, the human experience. Then we see how they responded, then we see how God responded, and then we see almost like the end of the story. So, like if we were to look at each of the stories in the first category, what the human experience was, like we would see, like, well, some were walking in deserts, and some were in despair, and some were in distress, and some were in prison, and some thought their life were going to end, right? And so every story is containing all of these things. My favorite one in there is like there's this story that it's almost like these people, they were just going through their normal life, they were just going about their job after they looked out and they thought, look at everything God has done, like it is so amazing. And then God sends up this storm. And like, why you know they their their ship goes up to the to the heavens, it plummets down to the earth. And I love this phrase. It says they were at their wits' end. Whatever story is being described in Psalms, like there's four of them, you have to look them up. Like we can all identify with the despair, the distress, I'm at my wit's end, I fear I'm in death, my soul is in chains, I feel like I'm in prison, prison, I feel foolish. Maybe I'm paying for my own rebellion, human experience. But then when we look at each of the stories, each of them will say in there, they cried out to God. Every one of the stories, they cried out to God. How did God respond? Every one of the stories says this that God heard their cry and he delivered them. And then every story in Psalm 107 says this. Every story. And so I see, like, even what I'm going through right now, while maybe it feels miserable and I hate it, and I wish I could switch it and I wish I could change it, right? Yeah. I realize that even what I'm walking through, even what Tracy's walking through, even what Tess is walking through, even what anybody is listening is walking through in the deepest, darkest places in their soul. It is their human experience. We cry out to God. God does hear, God does deliver, maybe not in our timing, and maybe not even in the way that we thought he would.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the story always points back to him. Let them give thanks to the Lord for his loving kindness and his faithful deeds among men. Come and listen. Let me tell you what he's done for my soul.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good. I actually love Psalms 107, and I even love uh that take on it. Um, I definitely, if you have not read through that, definitely go read through that because it is so I feel like it will minister. It's one of those, um, scripture's all like this, but it's one of those things like you can reread it in different seasons of your life, and you're gonna get something different from it in every season you read it in, or even every day. Like I feel like you could reread that and learn something new about who God is and and how he delivers us and how he ministers us and how he shows up um no matter where we're at. Um, I also you mentioned um how in some translation it says like let the redeemed tell their story. I feel like um when we do, especially in seasons of heartache and trouble and suffering, um, when we're able to, even in the midst of that, share in community with others um and share our story and even share of what God has done and what he is doing. It's almost like a double ministry. It's like we're ministering to ourselves and reminding ourselves, and we're also ministering to the other people that we are sharing that about, um, sharing about our suffering or our story or what God has done. Um, I feel like I'm able to do this a lot through journaling. Like I'll look back at what I've like just prayed and poured out like just my thoughts to God. And I'll look back and I'll go, oh my gosh, God actually answered that in such a cool way that I didn't even know. Um there's a forget. Yes, we forget.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just thinking of the faces of the women that are a part of our women's ministry here who have been bold and brave to share their stories. And I think about how we all receive that when they do. And then when we think about sharing ours, we have other ideas about how people will receive that, or even how we receive it if we say it out loud. But I just think about even the stories where where the circumstances that they walk through, it's not all tidy and tied up and yay, see everything's better at the end of this, but just the the stories of women walking and realizing that God was with them in that the God with us in all seasons is really a beautiful promise that we have.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, yes, I love that. And I I just loved how you kind of Lori ended that with, you know, and God delivered them. Yeah. You know, like even in the midst of the heart and in the things that we'll experience in this life, even if you're walking in something that feels like it's never ending, I think the joy that we can hold on to, even in the suffering, is to know that even if God doesn't do it in this life, we will be redeemed and delivered also in the next one too, in in heaven with him. Um, I feel like that's such a um a a promise, uh a future promise that we can like also hold on to and have an anchor with. Um, because sometimes we, I don't know about you guys, I'm sure we can all agree to this, like this world's so crazy, like there's just always something going on, it's always another thing, always something else to grieve, always something else to worry about. Um, and I know for me, like it's been such a um, I guess a good reminder and like also somewhere to place my peace and my joy and my hope in is anchored in like this is not my home. You know, this is not my final destination. This is not um the place where um I don't I'm not really technically I'm not really even working towards we actually had this conversation with our college student. You know, like we're when you have the perspective of eternity in mind in your everyday and in your life, you're not really working towards like um, you know, even like yes, it's great to work towards retirement and like to have all these things and like to do the things and be able to vacation and whatever, but like ministry never ends. You know, like when you are in Christ, like your ministry, no matter where you're at in whatever season that you're at, like you're um, I feel like a lot of times we're we're um I don't know about I feel like I feel like our generation is definitely pushed in this as like work 45 years and then like you're gonna get the life you love, or like you know, you know what I'm saying? Like you're a promises American dreams, like that's so not real. Like, like God can do, first off, you're not promised those years. And first off, like what God has so much more for us, I feel like, to do and to live out um what he's called us to till like we are no longer here. And so I feel like we've had that conversation with some of our college life group kids. It's like when you have eternity and perspective, first off, you can find joy and hope and peace in in God in that, but also in just like trusting him to lead you and guide you no matter um your circumstances, too. Um, Lori, I would love for you to leave, if you could leave the woman listening on the other end um with just some encouragement. If she's just turned on this podcast today and she's heavy and she's just in the midst of a storm herself, um, or just coming out of one or maybe about to go into one, she doesn't know. Um, what would just be some encouragement that you would leave her with as she's sitting um and listening to this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's a good question. Um and I don't think that there is anything if someone's in the midst of a storm in pain, um, feeling maybe like God is silent, which feels excruciating, um, whatever they may be walking through and navigating, I don't know if there's anything I can say that's gonna like magically like, okay, here we go. I'm just gonna come back to something I think I said at the beginning that has been a comfort to my own soul. Um matter of fact, I was reading in Job recently, and he even says something to the effect of um, and and Job uses some really harsh and yet incredibly honest language, but I love that he brings it to God. Um, but he says, like, even in the midst of pain, let this be my joy. That I did not deny the Holy One. Like, there are times that we literally were navigating life, feeling like we're walking a tightrope, and we feel over here like we've got this huge pain that is just weighing us down, you know. But on the other end of the balancing pole, it's like, oh, but we know there's purpose, right? Or we go, oh my gosh, that we're feeling pulled, there's this major grief that it seems like just can't even get out of. And yet we know like there's God's goodness. And so it's almost like we're walking a tight rope, almost feel like we're teetering back and forth with these seemingly spiritual competing realities. But I'm gonna bring us back to they both exist: both joy, both sorrow, both grief, both God's goodness, both pain, both purpose, both hurt, both healing. Um, and bring us back to what I said at the beginning. This is the only time in my eternal life as a Christ follower that I will commune with God and I will relate to Jesus from a from a place of sorrow and suffering, of pain and hurt in my life ever. Because when I'm in heaven, all of that will be gone, dissipated, healed. Like that will be a different way of experiencing God's glory. Right now, in what I'm navigating, as hard as it may feel, like there is glory still to experience, but experiencing God's glory from a place of pain, sorrow, all those places. This now, this time of my life, as brief as a breath as it is, is the only time that I will commune with God, relate to God, identify with Jesus Christ from this place in my soul. And I want to steward it well. And I would encourage others to like adopt that mindset, like, okay, God, I want to steward this well in my life with you, walking with you, recognizing that you are my father, identifying with your son, and recognizing that your spirit dwells and is at work within me. So let me steward that well today.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good. That's wonderful. I love that. Any final thoughts?
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm crying.
SPEAKER_04:We have tissues over here. It's good. Oh no, I think uh yeah, I think that's just the mic drop moment. I think that's so good. And I really my hope and prayer is that the women that are listening to this can feel encouraged to one not only just be like, okay, yep, I've listened to this podcast. Everything's better. That's not the hope for this. I hope that you can really find um comfort and community in knowing that you're not alone and feeling the way that um you're feeling, or even feeling so unsettled and and worrisome. And maybe you're sitting in the seeds and that's really hard. I pray that you just um are able to listen to this and even listen to it back um and know that God sees you and his desire is to be with you in the midst of it, and his desire is to deliver you from it and through it, um, and to ultimately use it for your good and his glory in that in the midst of all of that. Um but th Lori, I would love for you to share a little bit about where we can find you online. Um, where where can we connect with you and your ministry and all the things?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so probably the best way to connect is at greatinvitation.org. Um, it is the it is the ministry that Mike and I, my husband and I have created together. And yes, we do walk with couples, but I'm also walking alongside women. Um those who are in ministry, yes, those who are overseas, yes, but like anyone, you know, basically, um, in a place of transformational mentoring. And so we really integrate, um, it's it's really almost like at the intersection of theology and and psychology. I had someone I worked with say, I didn't just need a counselor, I needed a theologian. And so we kind of like we we bring that together. Um, and that's how we come alongside, walk alongside people in whatever season or circumstance. So greatinvitation.org is the website, or I'll just give you my email address, which is Lori L-O-R-I at greatinvitation.org. They can just email me directly.
SPEAKER_04:That's so good. I love that. Um, yeah, definitely go check her out um and go follow and look up the great invitation. Um, and I'm sure they would love to have you over there. Um, and again, like I've obviously very um invested in the ministry. Um, I love what you and Mike are doing. I think it's so cool. I definitely need to make a trip to Beaver Lake just to hang out with you guys because that would be so fun. Um and yeah, I I thank you so much, Lori, for being on. And I cannot wait for everyone to listen to this podcast. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Table of Grace. And good news, we're gonna actually have a part two to this episode where Lori walks us through what it actually looks like to steward communion with God from a place of suffering. So we talked a lot about a bunch of different things in this episode and what it really feels like and looks like when it's not well with your soul. But this next episode, part two is gonna be more about the application. How do we actually steward walking with God from a place of suffering? And I think, guys, this is gonna be so good. So be sure to look out for part two next week. And again, if you enjoy this episode, let us know. Feel free to leave a review or send us a message on our social media channels at Central Baptist Women on Instagram or CBC Women's Ministry on Facebook. We would love to hear from you. And we hope this encourages you to share the good news and the hope of Jesus with someone today.